Al Davis: Has the game passed him by?

Thoughts from the Dark Side

May 30, 2008

61 Comments

Recommended (0) | Share

Hall of Fame member Al Davis

Today while talking with a fellow writer (who I won't name), he mentioned that the Oakland Raiders were horrible over the last five years because Al Davis was a detriment to the team. He, of course, mentioned that because of Al Davis there was a level of dysfunction within the Oakland Raiders that was laughable to nearly every fan around the league.

It's not that Raider Nation completely disagrees with this assessment. My friend made sure that I knew that over the past five years Al Davis has destroyed the Raiders and the reputation that they used to have, but I disagree. Mistakes have surely been made, and I'll be the first to mention them. He's the boss and by his standards of operation, he may agree that he's failed over the past five years. Because of this, my colleague wanted to know why Raiders fans were so quick to defend him...including me.

First things first, I don't defend him when I think that he's made the wrong choices or bad decisions. There are times that I don't agree with what he's doing, and I find that I'm right about this less than I'm wrong. This is why you have to judge him by all other owners and not his legend. Because of this, I'll tell you why I still think that Al Davis fully capable, and still better than most in his position, I understand the things he's done and I understand why he's done them.

Getting rid of Chucky

Al has his faults. He's vain, he's controlling, and he's tight with his money. The fact of the matter is that Gruden wasn't going to re-sign with the Raiders for the pittance that he was getting paid at the time. Ok, somewhere in the neighborhood of a cool $1 million a year isn't minimum wage, but for a coach that's just taken your team to two straight playoffs after a six year drought should get the going rate. That going rate was an even cooler $4 million.

Is there an owner out there with the creativity or the cajones to trade the most popular coach in all of football for his next coaches salary and four top draft picks? Before you answer, realize that Tagliabue had to make up yet another rule to prevent this from ever happening again. They call the NFL a copy cat league, but that's only referring to winning and completely getting over on the competition. As Mr. Davis would put it, "That's domination baby!"

Looking back, it's easy to say that the Raiders would've been better off keeping Chucky. Since the Buccaneers beat the Raiders in the Super Bowl, they are 36-44, have two out of five winning seasons and one of them was a 9-7 season. That doesn't spell John Madden to me, and that record is with former executive of the year Bruce Allen getting him talent like he did in Oakland.

The Case for Callahan

By the time that Davis knew he wasn't going to get an extension from Gruden, he had already lost valuable time. Rather than going into the 2002 season with a lame duck coach, he made the move to trade him. Dennis Green was the front runner for coaches from outside of the organization, but isn't he always?

The Raiders had just lost the 'Tuck' game, but they'd won the division for the second straight season and the offense was beginning to become formidable. Most of the credit for this went to Gruden, but what was overlooked was that the offensive line had improved from letting up 67 sacks in Callahan's first year as the coach in 1998 to only 27 in 2001.

The choice was to continue what John Gruden had started, so in that case the only two candidates were Bill Callahan and Chuck Bresnahan, the defensive coordinator. Just a little thing you should know about Al, he's not going to reward you when your defense wasn't able to close out a game you had full control of in the playoffs, tuck or no tuck. It also helped that players like Tim Brown were more than eager to take a meeting with Davis to endorse Callahan.

Callahan took the Raiders farther than any coach since Tom Flores, but failed to win the Super Bowl. Let me reiterate that when you get to the big game, Davis is much less forgiving of losses. John Rauch had a near perfect season in 1967 and lost the Super Bowl, causing Davis to visit many practices until the coach quit. Nobody really knows what happened behind closed doors, but in Callahan's second season, he was no longer coaching to stay with the Raiders.

I'll say it, since many of the players from that team (including Jerry Rice and Rod Woodson) have said it or intimated it, he tanked the season in hopes of getting fired. You can't judge Davis for that. Quitting on your team, your organization, and yourself is a personal decision and is not the fault of the boss, but the employee.

The Case for Norv Turner

On the heels of a coach showing no respect for the organization or for winning, Mr. Davis needed to find someone that cared about the Oakland Raiders. What was evident at the end of the Callahan era was that the team was in complete turmoil. Many of the young up and coming players from previous drafts were malcontent and looking to get out. Veterans such as Frank Middleton and Charles Woodson were vocal in their displeasure with the organization as a whole.

Bill Belichick had just won his second Super Bowl. He wasn't very good in his first go-round as a head coach with the Browns. In fact, he was practically run out of Cleveland and now he's winning Super Bowls. Al Davis has never been afraid of copying success and most likely saw this as a plus for his candidate. The Chargers had risen to power in the AFC West and he needed a coach that could figure out how to stop Ladanian Tomlinson, but the coach also had to be able to breathe life back into the offense which had dropped from first in the league to 25th.

In steps Norv Turner. Turner had grown up a Raiders fan, this was his dream job so there was no doubt that he would care as much as Davis about winning. Like Belichick, he was considered by many the top coordinator in the game and had been run out of DC in his first stint as a head coach. He had coached Ladanian Tomlinson in 2001 and the Chargers were still running his offense. He had just finished making over the Dolphins offense just as he recently did in San Francisco, so to Davis this was the right hire.

Many, including myself, worried about this decision, but the majority of the media along with fans of the Raiders saw this as a good hire. Looking back on it now, it's easy to criticize especially since Dennis Green ended up going to Arizona in the same season.

The Case for Art Shell

In Norv Turner's second season, is was evident that he either didn't have the backbone to get fired on his own terms or that Al Davis was making all of the coaching decisions. Randy Moss and Jerry Porter seemed to be working well together, but the play of Kerry Collins consistently underscored the lack of discipline on the team.

The Raiders couldn't run the ball, had no discipline on the offensive line, were at or near the top of the league in penalties, but still had the tenth best passing game despite 45 sacks and countless missed opportunities in or near the redzone. They had a defense that was poor at stopping the run and was inconsistent in stopping the pass. What the Raiders needed was a coach that would come in and take this sub par group and toughen them up.

A concern for Davis had to be lingering from the Chucky coaching vacancies and Callahan giving up, and with the passing weapons that had vertical game written all over it, he needed a coach that could help strengthen the running game and still make the attempts at the long pass. He also needed to hire someone that would still care as much as he felt Norv had.

His failure was his hesitation in an active coaching search. With that hesitation came Mike Lombardi's initiative in trying to land Bobby Petrino as the next head coach. In the end, he was left rehashing the good memories of Art Shell's last stint with the Raiders, while forgetting why he fired him in the first place.

It was Shell's toughness and discipline that Al Davis thought would turn his team around, but he forgot to remember that it was Tom Walsh that got Shell fired in his last go-round, and allowed the coach to re-hire Walsh as his offensive coordinator. Besides the Walsh hiring, the coaching staff was pretty good. Most notably, the hiring of Irv Eatman and Jackie Slater as offensive line coaches seemed to be brilliant. Who better to turn this offensive line around than two hall of fame offensive linemen and a pretty good line coach in Eatman.

We all know how that ended. Was he wrong to bring Shell back? Now it's very easy to see that it was. Had he hired Petrino, would that have been better? Petrino was the guy everyone thought was a top candidate and thanks to him, Greg Knapp, Tom Rathman, Tom Cable, Justin Griffith, and DeAngelo Hall are all Raiders.

The Case for the top draft picks

In 2002, he had two seasons before he'd be forced to make a decision on Charles Woodson's next contract. Eric Allen had retired, and Tory James was now on the other side and wasn't considered a top corner. There was a weakness in the Raiders nickle and dime coverage and their return game still wasn't what they'd hoped it would be. It was logical to draft the most exciting return man in the draft who also happened to be a prolific corner in college, Phillip Buchanon. I cringe typing that now.

The next pick was Napoleon Harris, who was picked to increase the speed at the linebacking position. It later turned out that he was drafted to replace Greg Biekert, who'd been the heart and soul of an overachieving defense in recent years. Harris developed and had a decent first year as the Raiders went to the Super Bowl and had a much faster defense than they had prior to Harris joining the unit.

In 2003, the Raiders needed another defensive end with Tony Bryant breaking his neck in 2002. With Tory James leaving for a big contract, Buchanon being inconsistent, and Woodson's needing to be franchised at the end of the season because they couldn't agree to a new contract, the Raiders also needed another corner. They also needed a safety since the other Woodson, Rod, was nearing retirement.

The Raiders drafted Nnamdi Asomugha, considered a huge stretch at the time by most draft aficionados like myself who not only played safety, but had cornerback speed. He then drafted Tyler Brayton, considered a minor but necessary stretch at the time.

In 2004, 99% of all fans and draft prognosticators couldn't see the Raiders draft anyone besides Gallery with their second overall pick. Had Turner had the guts to put Gallery in at left tackle right away, we might not be shaking our heads every time his name comes up.

In 2005, with Buchanon being shipped out with the 'Bust' tag attached, Charles Woodson signing an enormous franchise tag contract, and only Nnamdi Asomugha as the cornerback of the future who hadn't made a single interception in two seasons, Al Davis made a bold statement by drafting Fabian Washington and Stanford Routt in the first and second rounds.

In 2006, another top defensive back was added, but was necessary since the Raiders had nobody but Stuart Shweigert at free safety. The Raiders chose Huff over Leinart, and draft gurus were up in arms over the decision. This story still has another year or two to play out before anything can be determined.

The Truth About Rumors

There's no doubt in my mind that there has probably been some truth to the rumors that we constantly hear associated with the Raiders and Al Davis. What strikes me odd about many of the rumors and stories is that when the 'oppressed' former subjects of Al Davis are free of the so-called silver and black chains, mum is the word.

My challenge is for anyone to bring me sources and quotes from John Gruden, Bruce Allen, Bill Callahan, and Norv Turner backing any of this up. Where's Joe Bugel's, Mike White's, Tom Flores', and John Madden's quotes to back up these stories we hear so much about?

Jim Fassel has been an assistant coach for Davis' teams in the past and was hoping to land the head coaching job prior to Kiffin being signed. John Fox stormed out of the Raiders facility and quit as defensive coordinator prior to the 1996 season, but I've never seen a quote attributed to him saying anything negative about the Raiders or Al Davis.

So often, we hear about the Bill Walsh coaching tree, but outsiders forget that Bill Walsh was part of the Al Davis coaching tree. The Packers great years of the 90's were attributed to Ron Wolf, who got plenty of tutoring as a Raiders personnel executive for 21 years. A look throughout the league will find many with silver and black ties including the hated Mike Shanahan which leads me to ask, was Davis wrong to hire him? One has to wonder how a former Raiders middle linebacker turned TV commentator was hired to be the GM of an organization without any experience.

Oh, I'm not saying that people don't have bad things to say about the Raiders or the organization. Mike Lombardi, who may have an axe to grind, has been more than diplomatic with questions given to him about the Raiders organization and Al Davis. The worst thing that I've heard or read him say about the Raiders regarded the draft room, "almost no computers, it's like going back in time, real quiet and no distractions, no television, it's surreal." Makes you wonder how they've been able to make sane draft day decisions. I should add that in the same breathe Lombardi revealed that Davis had information about every pick stored in his head. On a scale of one to ten where ten is the worst thing you could say about Davis, I had to give that a five.

The Case for Davis

While he's volatile, controlling, vain, and whatever adjective you want to throw in there it's undeniable that nobody wants to win as much as Al Davis. For all of his failings of the past, as well as his successes, you always know that the only thing that matters to the man is winning.

Is there an owner in the league that knows more about football? NO

Is there an owner in the league that doesn't control the team? NO

Is there an owner in the league that doesn't get involved with personnel decisions? FEW if any

Is Al Davis the only owner that's hands on? NO

Is there anyone that wants to win more than Al Davis? NO

Have the Raiders been successful since Al Davis took over? YES

So why do people single out Al Davis as the worst owner in sports? ???

Tags: NFL, Oakland Raiders, Raiders

Discussion

61 Comments on "Al Davis: Has the game passed him by?"

Posted by OGKUSH, May 30, 2008 12:10 AM

hey rob nice article man! you hang out with al in yer off time don't you! :)

i want to knoiw yer thoughts on asomugha if i could sir!

Posted by Thoughts from the Dark Side: Al Davis: Has the game passed him by? | The RaiderCast, May 30, 2008 12:24 AM

[...] Read more. Posted in Blog, Oakland Raiders | [...]

Posted by OregonRaider, May 30, 2008 12:35 AM

Good take on AL. He has from day one been the mind behind the Raiders. However, when things go good he gets no credit in the media. It is the Grudens, Flores, Madden and the stars that made those good teams. It is never, "wow Al nows what he is doing!" Now when things go south for a while, well "it's Al's fault! What a idiot, he is old and out of control." All of this Al hating is a media bias that dates back to the seventies or earlier. Ask me it's crap! Pure and simple crap! Sure he makes mistakes, everybody does and some are slow to recognize and fix the mistakes. That can be the biggest problem especially when you are "waiting for talent to develop." All also takes chances and sometimes that pays off big and sometimes that bites you in the ass.

Al Davis '08

Posted by Jon Yoon, May 30, 2008 9:45 AM

Rob, allow me to chime in. I know I'm the Chiefs' MVN writer, but realize up-front that I think Lane Kiffin is the absolute right direction for your franchise but that the game has indeed passed Al Davis by.

There are two main reasons for this: a) Davis insists of installing his philosophy onto the coach; b) his extreme focus on winning now is alienating good coaches and keeping young players with upside on the bench.

To the first point, Al gave up a ton of draft picks to land marquee corners, which is comical given that the AFC West is a league dominated by its RBs. Davis was so obsessed with building for speed that he ignored the fact that in order to succeed on defense in the AFC West, you have to stop the run. Second, the reason the Raiders looked promising to close the season is that Kiffin was in control and he demanded the team be patient and develop their youth instead of splurging on marginal veterans. The approach worked. Davis, impatient for results, stole power away from Kiffin and again reloaded a roster that was just in the process of rebuilding.

That segways into the second point. He is oblivious to the fact that the best teams in this league build through the draft. Why? Because young guys have more upside. Kwame Harris and Javon Walker are marginal veterans, and yet, they're going to win starting jobs guaranteed. Even if a standout rookie comes in and outplays them in the offseason. And so rather than give Bush a chance to prove his worth, they instead go for the speed RB that Davis wants. Rather than trade down in the draft to grab a left tackle like Chris Williams or Branden Albert or Jeff Otah (PLUS extra draft picks that could be used to, say, build the defensive line), they instead choose to go with Kwame Harris, an average left tackle at best. While the best teams are stockpiling good draft picks through trades, Davis is trading them away for veterans who usually have a 2-year life cycle.

The Win Now principle doesn't work in the modern NFL. Kiffin gets that; Davis does not. I know it sounds insincere, but for your fans' sake, I truly hope that Kiffin outlasts Davis in the Raiders' organizatin. I truly believe that if Kiffin was in charge, he would have spent one more year building through the draft and investing in the offensive/defensive lines, rather than splurging on receivers and cornerbacks to fulfill Davis' desire to build for speed.

Posted by Greg Trippiedi, May 30, 2008 10:35 AM

Rob makes a very convincing case for Davis not being the worst owner in sports.

He's also gotten very unlucky with his picks on the offensive line not panning out -- these were guys that the draft guys universally thought would be successful.

However, not being the worst, and being competent enough to improve the team are two very different things.

Good article.

Posted by Greg Trippiedi, May 30, 2008 10:38 AM

And to Jon's points, and he makes a bunch of good ones, I don't think you can fault Davis for going cornerbacks first on defense.

Denver is clearly a passing team behind Cutler. KC may be a rushing team, but I don't think the Raiders view them as a threat in their current state. And the Chargers -- well, the Chargers are going to have a top 5 passing game and a top 5 running game. If you can't shut down at least one of those units, how can you plan to stop both?

Posted by MrMojo4321, May 30, 2008 11:04 AM

Ok, first of all it was an excellent read Rob, and to answer your last question; which I feel you know the answer already, is well, its easy. Al is a bigger than life target. The maverick attitude, repeated head butting with the NFL commissioner(s), the 'Just Win Baby' mantra, (which I love as a fan and a member of the nation) all make for incredible media fodder, especially when the Raiders are statistically the worst NFL team of the last five years, as ESPN is very adept at telling us. I've seen that 5-year graphic on every Raider story since slightly before the Super Bowl. It's easy to say, Al Davis is crazy, it's hard rationalize mistakes after the fact. I don't defend every Al decision, ahem Art Shell, but at least Al's trying to bring in some talent. Is Kwame magically going to turn into Waler Jones, nope not by a long shot, which is the bad news; the good news is Kwame just has to outplay the ghost of Barry Sims. Which is completely within Kwame abilities. Deangelo has to outplay Washington/Rout combo of last year. Anyone that watched that Colts game saw where Manning went all game, sorry Fabian. Manning won't have that option this year. Would the Silver and Black gotten that presence out of our 2nd rounder, probably not. Or how about a pass rushing DT, (G. Warren) in the fifth or fourth or whatever we gave for him, probably not. Oren O'Neil, our sixth rounder last year is clearly The Raiders FB of the future. Mario Henderson could start at either tackle position. As far as I know we have all of our picks next year. In summation

I think Al has a nice job with the talent available to bridge the gap until our organizational prospects step in.

One Nation...

Posted by Chomper, May 30, 2008 11:08 AM

It hurt when he got rid of Chucky... It hurt even more when he hired Art Shell and Bed&Breakfast... Do I think I know more football than Al Davis? Do I think the ESPN talkheads know more football than Al? Does Nancy Gay, the guy at the newstand, the bartender know more football than Al?....Nope. He�s the man, he�s not invincible or always right, but he�s the man.

Posted by MWRaider, May 30, 2008 11:32 AM

I think the word you are looking for in the title is passed, not past.

#10

Posted by OGKUSH, May 30, 2008 11:40 AM

yes well speaking of al, i really hope he gets a deal done with asomugha ... man we really need that kind shut down corner along side hall ... if al messes this up, i'll never forgive him for it.

#11

Posted by Rob Calonge, May 30, 2008 11:48 AM

LOL!! :-) yes, MWRaider. The 'past' was part of another iteration of the original title I had in mind and after playing with the title, didn't change it. Thanks for the catch.

Thanks to everyone that stopped by to read it too.

John, one point. You're right about the AFC West being a dominant running division. While drafting those corners, he was also signing run stuffers like Sam Adams and Ted Washington. While the AFC West has been running in recent years, its past and future are the passing game. Your Chiefs, the Chargers, and the Broncos all have gone to younger QB's. Besides your Chiefs the other two are first round picks.

You're correct about building through the draft. Many of the players on the Raiders are either home grown or practically home grown. The practically home grown guys are the ones that really never got a shot and got cut in their first couple of years. He's a master talent evaluator, which is why Burgess is a lowly paid Pro Bowl player.

Lastly, don't forget that the contracts that he's committing himself to this year either pay out in the 'uncapped' year or end there. I obviously could've gone on longer in the article, but it was most definitely longer than I wanted to write in the first place :-) Good points, but you still prove my point about the headlines making your opinion other than the facts.

#12

Posted by Spencer Mills, May 30, 2008 1:05 PM

What most people don't remember.......

Is that the Raiders were 4-2, and on there way to victory in Baltimore the year after the SB loss to the Bucs. Then what happens? Gannon was injured and lost forever. When you take the MVP away from a football team, they are going to struggle, and as a result, I do not blame Callahan for the 2003 season, and I also understand the struggles the following two seasons as a result of losing Gannon. What you think the Colt would be good w/o Peyton Manning? Not a chance! Ad not for a few seasons either.

The only season in the past five that cant be explained is Art Shell's year. Just terrible, but every other year, 2003, 2004, and 2005, can be attributed to losing the best player in the league, Gannon, and 2007 was the turn around year.

OakFoSho

#13

Posted by Jeff Reulbach, May 30, 2008 1:40 PM

Sometimes genuis can be view by others who are not so smart as being crazy. Al Davis could care less what people are saying about him because his team has been successful over the duration of his ownership not merely for a ten year span which is when teams are referred to as dynasties. So the last five years have been downers, but the preceding year they were in the Super Bowl. Compare the history of the Raiders under AL Davis to say New Orleans, Cleveland, even the some of the Top teams San Diego, Jacksonville, etc. None of them have won anything, but because they are currently contenders they are lauded. When the Raiders bounce back, watch how quickly AL is consider to be a Genuis and Legend all over because winning is all that matters in this league, but maybe we ought to take a look at contribution to the leauge as well. Nobody else compares over such an extended period, even Teams that have won more Super Bowls - Davis is a Sun compared to shooting stars in this regard. The difference lies in the fact that first and foremost, above any other owner in the leaugue, Al Davis is a Football guy. He didn't sell burgers or create a home improvement store and then buy his way into the league. Al knows the game, but he makes mistakes like any pioneer, ever heard of Thomas Edision and his light bulb - and Al has failed 10,000 times without success. Mark these words - Al's legacy will not end with the Raiders being a cellar dweller - the phoenix is about to rise from the ashes to everyone's amazement. Then he'll be the Maverick and Genuis again in everyone's eyes.

#14

Posted by Jeff Reulbach, May 30, 2008 1:45 PM

"Corrections - Updated"

Sometimes genuis can be view by others who are not so smart as being crazy. Al Davis could care less what people are saying about him because his team has been successful over the duration of his ownership not merely for a ten year span which is when teams are referred to as dynasties. So the last five years have been downers, but the preceding year they were in the Super Bowl. Compare the history of the Raiders under AL Davis to say New Orleans, Cleveland, even to some of the Top teams San Diego, Jacksonville, etc. None of them have won anything, but because they are currently contenders they are lauded. When the Raiders bounce back, watch how quickly AL is consider to be a Genuis and Legend all over because winning is all that matters in this league, but maybe we ought to take a look at contribution to the leauge as well. Nobody else compares over such an extended period, even Teams that have won more Super Bowls - Davis is a Sun compared to shooting stars in this regard. The difference lies in the fact that first and foremost, above any other owner in the leaugue, Al Davis is a Football guy. He didn�t sell burgers or create a home improvement store and then buy his way into the league. Al knows the game, but he makes mistakes like any pioneer, ever heard of Thomas Edision and his light bulb - and Al hasn't failed 10,000 times without success. Mark these words - Al�s legacy will not end with the Raiders being a cellar dweller - the phoenix is about to rise from the ashes to everyone�s amazement. Then he�ll be the Maverick and Genuis again in everyone�s eyes.

#15

Posted by Jeff Little, May 30, 2008 1:50 PM

Rob,

Excellent article. I don't think Al Davis is the worse owner in football but unfortunately is in the conversation. He has made some mistakes and some good picks that didn't work out as expected. (Robert Gallery & Jake Grove).In that draft they were considered the best LT & Center in the draft. The team needs to build through the draft and hasn't and I have to place that at Al's doorstep. It has been years since the Raiders drafted a DT for example and that can't happen in a run dominated division. I would rather see the Raiders sign Asomgha, Burgess and Kirk Morrison to long term deals before spending on free agents at the end of thier careers. The Raiders have a good mix of veterans and youth on this years version and I feel that the Raiders will surprise a lot of teams this year and make a lot of noise in the AFC West.

#16

Posted by steve, May 30, 2008 3:34 PM

Some of our first round picks have actually worked out. Nnamdi, Gallery now that he is a left guard. Mike Huff is now a Free Safety so we still have to wait on him, DMac is a "homerun hitter" who will be running in a zbs so there's a 80/20 chance he will kick ass, and JR is busting ass to be the team leader. Some other first rounders like Fabian and Brayton didnt work out too well. But it seems that our picks from the 2nd round or later have been way better. Routt beat out Fabian last year, Morrison was a 4th round pick, Howard was a 2nd round pick. So if most of our first round picks are becoming good football players and later round picks have become good starting players, the future looks bright for us.

#17

Posted by Coach Elkins, May 30, 2008 4:20 PM

Mr. Calonge,

Now thats was a great read. Very insightful points. No emotion involved.

Great work!

Coach Elks

#18

Posted by Rob Calonge, May 30, 2008 4:36 PM

Thanks for all of the support guys. I think you all make good points.

OGKUSH - My take on Nnamdi. I think everything is fine with Nnamdi. I'm sure that he would've rather gotten a long term deal, but there is still time for that. I can't see how the Raiders could not work out a long term deal for him so that he'll fit within the constraints of the cap. For as much C-Wood was supposed to be, Asomugha has surpassed even those expectations and if he continues his play, we could be watching another HOF player.

OregonRaider - I agree. When you gamble you aren't going to win all your bets. Al's done a good job over the years though.

OakFoSho - I remember that fateful day, but that happened in Norv's first year. Callahan had already been jettisoned. The loss of Gannon was a killer for the Raiders because they were expecting to have another 2-3 years of Gannon.

Jeff R.- You're exactly right. I like your analogy of Thomas Edison. Many people don't know this, but he was a proponent of DC power to the house, which turns out to be much more deadly, unreliable, and more expensive. He also invented movies and Hollywood...Genius. Hard to believe that his own company kicked him out (GE).

Jeff L. - Good to see you. Are you winning your KLAC AM contest? Leave that link when you post. I think that I disagree with you a little about building through the draft. I honestly think that he has done a decent job of that. What has hurt his drafts is the turnover in coaches and systems. Can't develop that talent if it doesn't fit your system.

Steve - Couldn't agree more! Could you tell that to Jeff L.? :-) just kidding Jeff.

Coach Elkins - I love your moniker because now I can say, "Thanks Coach!"

#19

Posted by Mike49er, May 30, 2008 6:21 PM

Bobbo?? Did you honestly believe that weak tripe would fly? lol..in your dreams.

You're kind of confused on a few issues.

Chucky. Any ACTUAL idea on what happened? Let me help.

Had NOTHING to do with money. You know that.

There were numerous reasons Chucky left.

First is Al resented the fact Chucky now was in charge, NOT AL. The credit was going to Gruden, NOT AL.

Now, that's small, in that Al never addressed it, but everyone else did.

More the reason was Notre Dame had made an offer to Gruden. Lot's of talk about Gruden leaving "The Controlling Old Man", but Gruden went public, and said "I'm the coach of the Oakland Raiders." ONCE IT CAME TO DISCUSSING GRUDEN'S CONTRACT EXTENTSION, Al, in his back stabbing, all about me mode, stated PUBLICLY that the reason he felt the Raiders came up short in their last few games is because of Gruden, that he wasn't in it completely, that he was distracted by N.D.'s offer. THAT PUT GRUDEN OVER THE EDGE. Even when more money was brought up for Gruden he stated, and I QUOTE: "There isn't enough money in the world to make me stay and play for that man".

Al chased him away, quite clearly, and quite deliberately.

You kind of completely torched that..didn't ya?

RE: Callahan? YOU STATED: "The choice was to continue what John Gruden had started, so in that case the only two candidates were Bill Callahan and Chuck Bresnahan, the defensive coordinator."

WRONG. "only two candidates"??? WTF??? What you mean is the Raiders were the ONLY team who had HC'ing applicants staying away in droves. Why is that, Bobbo?

It's called "Because of the worst owner in sports" Save that weak "Not his fault. Callahan gave up." That's bull, and you know it. Show me anywhere that players said he tanked, wanting to get fired. What they said is he had no control, because the worst owner in all of sports constantly undermined him. That same owner constantly overruled him, as he's done with all his charges.

Turner: Last coach you had that actually tried to coach. Like the rest, players knew he had no pull. Hell, with 4 games left in a horrible crash and burn season with Collins in, Norv did what he was supposed do, he benched Collins, who was playing like total crap, and said 'Tui's turn. Last 4 games are yours to show us what you have". THE WORST OWNER IN ALL OF SPORTS overruled Turner, and promptly put back in Collins, who promptly lost THE REST OF THE GAMES.

Yes, that WORST OWNER IN ALL OF SPORTS now was in a situation where NO ONE wanted to coach for him.

You remember, don't you?

Martz came in for an interview. Totally dazzled Al. Raiders indicated they were very impressed?? Before Martz got out of town he had his agent inform the Raiders don't even bother writing up a contract, that he wanted nothing to do with the chaos in Oakland..that chaos is called 'THE WORST OWNER IN ALL OF SPORTS".

Remember Whiz??? Same thing..before getting out of town stated 'No thanks. Don't bother. Staying in Pittsburg" before he took off to coach the Cards.

Marinelli? same thing.

YOU ASKED: "Was it wrong to bring back Shell"??

THERE WAS NO ONE ELSE. No one wanted the job, period.

Shell came back the same puppet he was before, and it showed. On the sideline, the ONLY HC I can recall who's looks more dead while standing there, than Art Shell, is "Lance" Kiffin.

Both are hired by design. It's called Meek and Mild.

Yes, Gruden didn't fit the MEEK AND MILD bit. Al figured he had a first year HC, would cower to him, and it backfired on him.

I mean, your "Genius"???? He hired and KEPT White. White was about as big a marshmellow as there was, yet Al hired him.

Joe Bugel??? JOE BUGEL?? how the hell can you justify Al hiring Joe Bugel??

Bugel makes Gomer Pyle look bright, but..BUT..he was a YES MAN. Someone Al wanted..a YES MAN.

What?? you going to deny that? (you and I both know you won't because this is where you avoid defending any of your words. Where you prop others posting, feigning that being adequate enough. Consistency. that you are, lol )

The WORST OWNER IN ALL OF SPORTS is a pretty much universal tag that Al has earned.

#20

Posted by Sharpe, May 30, 2008 6:41 PM

I guess we shall see, won't we!

#21

Posted by Mike49er, May 30, 2008 6:58 PM

Rob: The Truth About Rumors

There�s no doubt in my mind that there has probably been some truth to the rumors that we constantly hear associated with the Raiders and Al Davis. What strikes me odd about many of the rumors and stories is that when the �oppressed� former subjects of Al Davis are free of the so-called silver and black chains, mum is the word.

My challenge is for anyone to bring me sources and quotes from John Gruden, Bruce Allen, Bill Callahan, and Norv Turner backing any of this up. Where�s Joe Bugel�s, Mike White�s, Tom Flores�, and John Madden�s quotes to back up these stories we hear so much about?

=========================================

LMAO..uh...bobbo??

What's wrong with the above picture?

You 'CHALLENGE" anyone to bring you sources..quotes..etc. from Gruden, Allen, etc etc..about "these stories"

Uh..do you think actually mentioning the RUMORS YOU'RE REFERRING TO would help?

Is that too much to ask??

(again, I know you'll avoid this like the plague. :) While quick to gush over someone else replying, hoping it bailed ya out..but it didn't. You know better than that.)

In answer to your "vague" request..to quote something you never "mentioned"..the answer is simple. Most of them are still in football, in some capacity. Everyone realizes that if you badmouth someone you previously worked for, prospective employers know you'll do it to them.

You needed that explained to you?

=======================================

Rob:The Case for Davis

While he�s volatile, controlling, vain, and whatever adjective you want to throw in there it�s undeniable that nobody wants to win as much as Al Davis.

Mike49er: Bull. Asinine comment. Every owner wants to win. Al is one of the few that would rather lose HIS WAY than win someone else's way. READ THAT AGAIN, AND DISPUTE IT IF YOU DARE.

==================================

For all of his failings of the past, as well as his successes, you always know that the only thing that matters to the man is winning.

Mike49er: Only thing??? Really? IF THAT WERE THE CASE HE WOULD BUTT THE HELL OUT AND LET A QUALITY HC COME IN, and run the team.

Do you deny that? Again, I DARE YOU. IF AL cared about winning, he would LET OTHERS DO THEIR JOBS. he would create an atmosphere where he had an even chance at obtaining the best coaching staff, and players that he could. HE DOESN'T DO THAT..because he doesn't care about WINNING..he only cares about WINNING HIS WAY.

Every owner wants to win...geez..EVERY ONE. Most let others do their job, and aren't the laughing stock of the NFL like your owner is, but they still want to win.

==========================================

Is there an owner in the league that knows more about football? NO

Mike49er: Goody for you. Most owners weren't a HC at one point. Way to state the obvious. Unfortunately for YOU, your HC,..oops..I mean..your OWNER still wants to make all of the decisions..that makes him THE WORST OWNER IN ALL OF SPORTS..because no quality HC will EVER step into that job knowing that.

Thanks for the setup, Bobbo.

====================================

Is there an owner in the league that doesn�t control the team? NO

Mike49er: WRONG. Should have read "Is there an owner in the league who overrules the head coach on a regular basis like Al Davis? NO.

Is there an owner in the league who undermines his head coach in front of the players like Al Davis? NO.

Is there an owner in the league who rides his little golf cart out into the middle of the field, during practice, and calls the players over to discuss "D-Back 101"? NO.

Is there an owner in the league who's SCREWED OVER THE FANS ANY MORE THAN AL DAVIS HAS?? NO (yeah, screwed you guys over, royally, publicly, repeatedly. Go ahead..I DARE YOU TO REFUTE IT..you won't, lol...because you can't"

Coaches don't want to coach for him..players buy out their contracts to get away from him...yes..THE WORST OWNER IN ALL OF SPORTS.

---

Is there an owner in the league that doesn�t get involved with personnel decisions? FEW if any

Mike49er: Is there any owner in the league, BESIDES AL DAVIS, who gets involved with ALL personal decisions? NO

Hell, Lame Kiffin has stated numerous times AL DAVIS IS THE GENERAL MANAGER.

Players haven't respected ANY OF THE COACHES, because they know the HC is a token puppet. That makes Al Davis THE WORST OWNER IN ALL OF SPORTS.

----

Is Al Davis the only owner that�s hands on? NO

Mike49er: Name ONE owner who comes even close to butting in like Al does? NAME ONE. You can't. The closest USED to be Jerry Jones, and even he realized it backfired on him, and he backed off. That's why Parcells went there.

Only one close to butting in on everything is Snyder with Wash, and even then it's not one 10th of what Al does.

Yes, a well deserved title of WORST OWNER IN ALL OF SPORTS.

Have the Raiders been successful since Al Davis took over? YES

Mike49er: Successful? OH...right...a QUARTER OF A CENTURY AGO..Yeah..sure..I remember..I think.

At one point...LONG LONG TIME AGO, Al was on his game..now he's a shell of that man, and 10 times more stubborn. That's what happens when some get as old as the hills...ornery as hell, can't tell them a thing, think they know it all, stubbornly stick to old ways. The NFL has gone leaps and bounds past Al Davis, in every aspect, and his ornery old ass refuses to see it. Old people are like that, and yes, that adds to his WORST OWNER IN ALL OF SPORTS.

Again, I DARE YOU TO EXPLAIN HOW THE SIMPLE FACT that you've gone through so many HC's, while no quality coach will even entertain the idea of coaching the Raiders has NOT HURT THE TEAM??? It's all because of Al.

DO YOU DENY THAT???

No one else..Al. He's dragged the level down because he refuses to accept the fact he's gotten older, and that the NFL has evolved.

Again, DO YOU DENY THAT? lol..come on Bobbo, grow a pair and back up your words.

do you dare?

======================================

So why do people single out Al Davis as the worst owner in sports? ???

Because they, you, and I know it to be true. No owner, EVER, has done more to sabotage their own team than Al Davis has. Save the 'He's the man" whine. He was, at one point, a few decades ago..but now he's dragging the Raiders into the grave, and has been for quite a while.

Well..that was fun :)

#22

Posted by MartinTheMerciless, May 30, 2008 7:06 PM

niners. Stick a YORK in em. They are done.

#23

Posted by Logan, May 30, 2008 7:12 PM

Haha RaiderMike is back again! He doesn't even comment on the Niner articles, yet he has a long history here. So tell me, Mike, were you upset when the Nation kicked you out? Did you do something that got your fan privileges revoked? Why do you purport to know so much about a team that you hate? You've made three huge accusations and claimed inside knowledge of coaches that interviewed with the Raiders...stuff that you can't possibly know seeing as you're not the coaches themselves and you're certainly not their agents.

You can do what the rest of the world can do, and that's speculate. The only difference is that you're arrogant enough to believe your words are the truth.

As for Shell, his mistakes were his own. He made the choice to bring in Walsh (who was running a Bed and Breakfast) and contrary to your claims, the big bad wolf didn't eat him. Al didn't override his decision, oddly enough, can you bring up anything that proves that he overrides all decisions if he doesn't like them? How about your claim that no one wanted the Raider job before the 2006 season?

See, you make the same type of claims, and you most likely will not respond with any type of proof. As usual, you'll see someone (me on several entries now) call you out, and you'll disappear, go hold a picture of Montana and Rice and come back a few posts later to spew your tripe again. When you can bring more than empty words to the debate, when you can prove that you actually know about what you're talking about rather than claiming that you "know more about the Raiders" then never demonstrating that knowledge, then you can come back.

Rob and Pat, if he doesn't actually back up his claims or shape up, what about making sure he can't post here anymore? He doesn't ever bring anything to a discussion, so what the point of him being around?

#24

Posted by Rob Calonge, May 30, 2008 7:20 PM

Hello MikeR8R! Before I start, let me inform you that I'm trying to be gentle. I don't want you to get your feelings hurt like you did a week ago. Is that alright?

I was going to address ALL of the items that you took two posts to make, but then I thought better of it.

Your commenting on my story! I've already done the work. I've read, re-read, and then checked it again. I'm quite satisfied with it.

You see Mike, nobody expects to change your opinion. You are a hater. It literally makes you feel good to make others upset, but you fail here. I'm not upset and I doubt anyone else is either, but maybe that's what keeps bringing you back. :-)

I want to thank you for coming by to chat, but I've got another story to do. I would've loved to have ripped your posts apart piece by piece but there is only so much time in the day.

BTW, before I congratulate someone for having my back, I've usually already addressed you myself. I think all of us here know that I can handle my business...even with you Mike.

Oh yeah, make sure to come back tomorrow too, the story will have real quotes, and TFDS will be your actual source for them! :-)

Thanks for stopping by Mike. Great posts! :-)

#25

Posted by Joe, May 30, 2008 9:31 PM

Mike I'm sure if Raiderfan was as bored as you we could come up with a dysfunctional pattern by the 49whiners as good or probably better than your synopsis of the Raiders.

Problem is we are too busy drinking beer, smoking blunts and getting arrested to care as much as you do...

This is what happens when you "just know" and not when you have to talk yourself into it...

#26

Posted by RaiderDoc, May 30, 2008 9:31 PM

First let me say this was an interesting read, and I really enjoy the articles on TFDS. That said, the answer to your question is yes. I am a huge Raider fan, and there is no denying Al was a genius (maybe even still is in some ways), but there is also no denying HE is the single biggest reason we are all suffering year in and year out. There is no doubt he wants to win, but the truth is, he has lost the ability to facilitate it. Perhaps he is still a genius when it comes to football talent, scheming, etc. Scratch the perhaps, I don't doubt it is so, but he has become the single worst manager of people and of a team in the league. What happened to pride and poise? What happened to commitment to excellence? What happened to "just win baby?" It pangs me to say it, but a lot of what mike49er says has some truth to it (don't get me wrong, some is just crazy talk, but some is true). The haters use to hate because they were jealous, now Al actually gives them reason to laugh. It is truly sad what has happened to us. It is doing us no good, that all our homers defend him. I am grateful for all he once did. He is our heart, he IS the Raiders. But just as his body is starting to fail him, he is starting to fail us. It doesn't mean we shouldn't honor and respect him, but he needs to realize the harm he is doing... as do we.

The answer to your question is yes, the game has passed Al by

#27

Posted by Patrick Patterson, May 30, 2008 9:41 PM

Something must have struck a nerve with Mikey, he sure got worked up into a real froth.

#28

Posted by Raider Blues, May 30, 2008 10:16 PM

UH... 49er... Tell me just how well Chucky has done in Tampa... I hear TB Fans regularly say he took a SB Team in place and then nothing... nothing like your 49ers will be forever... NOTHING!

Al on the other hand has put his team back together. 2007 was a turning year 2008 will be even better and 2009/2010 watch out!

Just Win Baby!

Al is the MAN!

#29

Posted by MJ Kasprzak, May 31, 2008 12:23 AM

Oh my God this was a book and a half, and so were the comments! I love the passion of Raiders' fans, second only to Packers (sorry, we sell more tickets for road games than y'all did a couple years ago at home, and that says something--every game sold out for decades on season tickets alone, and a waiting list thousands long).

Let me be up front: I am the man to which this conversation took place, and I am not afraid to admit it. It was very well-written, and considering everyone's perception around the country, it was a service to all to hear a different view. There were areas that I agree with, but for those I do not, let me do my best to answer your points:

1. If his cheapness is costing them great coaches, that is a flaw that must be considered in any analysis of whether he is bringing down the team. He exhibited this also in not being willing to pay Russell what even the previous year's #1 pick earned, hindering his development.

2. Gruden's Tampa team got old and was overmatched this year but still won their division--he's still a better coach than anyone since.

3. The refusal to act on getting a new coach after Turner was egregious. Perhaps because he was stubbournly insisting it be done his way instead of through media pressure, but if that resistance hurts his team it is another sign his ego gets in the way of his effectiveness. (Full discretion: I thought Shell was a good hire, but didn't realize he was going to sit one of his best receivers and hire a guy who had worked a B&B for like a decade.)

4. The biggest problem I have in his drafts was Michael Huff. How do you need a franchise QB horribly and not take Leinert, who fell below where he was rated? Either someone convinced him to make the wrong pick or it was his idea--either way, his fault.

5. Regarding "The Case for Davis":

I think his knowledge of the game is of a game that is no longer played. He keeps wanting the personnel to maintain a vertical game when that is no longer the way. It's like a team in the 50's being run by a guy who "knows the game" from the wishbone era.

There are owners that do not control their teams: Kraft lets Belichick control the Pats, the shareholders let Ted Thompson control my Pack, the Chargers are controlled by AJ Smith...most teams are controlled by the GMs. I would say the Offensively Named Ones are controlled by Snyder and Cowboys by Jones at the same level as Davis' Raiders, but that's about it. This actually answers three questions that were really one rephrased--the only criticism I have about your article, however much I disagree.

The Raiders have absolutely been successful under Davis, and I believe he is arguably the best owner of all time. But he began losing his effectiveness in the Jay Shroeder era, and while I do not consider him the worst owner in sports, he is in the bottom ten.

#30

Posted by MJ Kasprzak, May 31, 2008 12:55 AM

(I apologize up front if a similar comment already posted, but it did not show up on my page so I am re-writing it.)

What a book, and the comments too! I love the passion of Raiders' fans, second only to us Cheeseheads. (Don't waste your time refuting this--we have sold out every game on season tickets for almost 50 years with a waiting list in the thousands, and sell more seats to fans on the road than many of your home games a couple years back.) This article is a great service to those of us in the rest of the world who are offered only one view of Davis, and better than the tirades defending him I have heard too many times from other fans.

I'll be up front--I am the man who made this point and inspired this article. And there are a number of ways you have been convincing, but let me address those where I think you are still seeing through black-and-silver glasses:

1. If his cheapness is hurting the team, that is a flaw that must be considered in any analysis of him. This was apparent when he tried to force a contract on Russell inferior to the previous year's #1 pick, even though he should get a QB premium. This hurt Russell's development and the team.

2. Gruden's Tampa teams have gotten old and been ravaged by injuries, and yet he was able to make them very competitive this year. He is a better coach than anyone the Raiders have had since him.

3. His delay in making a decision about Turner and the next coach was egregious. If it was stubbourness to do it his way because the media was calling for action, that is his ego getting in the way of him doing his job. (Full disclosure: I thought Shell was a good hire, but--like AL--didn't know he was going to keep his best receiver on the sidelines and hire a guy who had been out of football for a decade!)

4. The main draft pick I think was horrible even without the benefit of hindsight was Huff. How do you not pick Leinert who fell below his perceived value when you need a franchise QB?

5. As for The Case for Davis:

He knows a game that is no longer, insisting on having primarily deep threat personnel. This is roughly akin to someone in the late 50's knowing the wishbone.

Your next three questions are really one (the only flaw in your article, however many points I disagree with), and our shareholders do not meddle as much with Ted Thompson/Mike McCarthy, nor Kraft with Belichick/whoever his puppet GM is, nor the Chargers with Smith/Turner...in fact, the only two owners that do the same level of meddling are probably Jones (Cowboys) and Snyder (Offensively Named Ones).

Davis has been very successful (arguably the most successful owner ever), but his effectiveness has been waning for 15 years. He is not the worst owner in sports (Dolan/Knicks), maybe not even the NFL (possibly the McCaskeys or Bidwell), but he is in the bottom ten.

#31

Posted by Rick Wascher, May 31, 2008 6:26 AM

Al Davis doesn't want to be held accountable for his drafting mistakes. Saying that Art Shell wanted Mike Huff is BS. Al drafts who Al wants. Leinart didn't have the big arm Al wants.Also Gruden left because he wanted more say in the final roster and Al said NO.We were 5th in rushing last year and 31st in stopping the run, do you really think Kiffin wanted another running back with Michael Bush in the wings we could be better without McFadden, And I think we can all agree that Al over-paid Tommy Kelly. Here is a guy that has never put up any numbers and you make him the highest paid tackle in the game.On a bum knee no less.Then they turn down Glen Dorsey because they paid Kelly over 50 million bucks. Al is the problem. He doesn't want a HC he wants someone to run practice while he calls the shots.

#32

Posted by Mike, May 31, 2008 9:19 AM

The media can pick on Al all they want but it really doesn't matter because they can't rattle big Al. Show me a team that doesn't have bad drafts. No matter what Al does the media criticizes him. No one wants to play in Oakland, they pay too much etc. If there is not a salary cap in two years it looks like the game has passed you by Al is ahead of everyone else. In today,s world what college football player doesn't look good. The modern day athletes all have size, speed, and strength. When you listen to all the so called experts like Mel Kiper who has never coached or run a team think they know more than anybody else. The game hasn't passed Al by loyalty has passed the game by. What owner takes care of his former player's better than Al? Answer no one.

Let's review Chucky (traitor). Remember the Notre Dame rumors. Two things happened. Al offered to let Chucky out of his contract if it was Chucky's dream job. He said no and he wanted pro football. The raiders had a extended contract in place and they not Al decided not to sign it. There was a deal in place but greed and more power took over because the success of the team was no longer important. Since he left the division Chucky coaches in is certainly not the strongest. Chucky is a decent coach but he is no Bill Parcels. The same type of thing is going on with Kiffin. Al gives him a great opportunity, surrounds him with quality coaches and with no prior head coaching experience wants to tell Al who the teams defensive coordinator is. What other team owner called Kiffin name. Arkansas was rumored after Lane showed coaching potential. College coaches are grossly over paid. This is another problem caused by other owners who in turn pay huge contracts to college coaches who have little or poor success. Small market teams do not generate the revenue that some other big market NFL teams and are more careful on what they pay coaches. Al's biggest fault is he still believes that giving opportunities will always return appreciation and loyalty and when it doesn't happen he then shows who runs his team.

#33

Posted by Jon Y, May 31, 2008 9:48 AM

Great points, and it's great to see some objective debate. To answer the question about what Chucky has done, whereas the Raiders have not recovered from their Super Bowl years, Chucky rebuilt the Bucs to a playoff team pretty much from scratch. And to Chucky's defense, he was getting paid minor league money to be a big league coach. I don't think it's greed to expect to be paid what everyone else is worth.

Rick, I'm glad that you agree with me. There are some who think Kiffin was trying to send a smokescreen when he said he didn't want a RB in the draft. I disagree. Davis has too long of a history of getting players he wants instead of what his coaches want. He wants fast corners, he wants fast receivers, and he wants QBs who can throw the ball deep. Sooner or later, he has to realize that there are other positions on the field too. And that his coaches may not buy into his philosophy. While I can't get into Kiffin's head, I tend to think he's practical enough to believe that the offensive line or the defensive line was top priority.

As I've said before, I think Kiffin is going to be a terrific head coach. But I don't know how much longer he can take this. He wanted a new defensive coordinator and was denied it. He had full control of personnel a year ago, and that was clearly stripped away from him. And, sad to say, he's probably going to fall with the sinking ship.

Has the game passed Davis by? Absolutely. Which is a shame, because Lane Kiffin knows how to play the new game and he was stripped of his potential to contribute to it.

#34

Posted by Jon Y, May 31, 2008 9:53 AM

Mike, the problems you point to are exactly the problem. Lane Kiffin is the head coach. Shouldn't he have some input as to who his coaches are?

Why do you think the Raiders hired Norv, Shell, and Kiffin? Because no other coach in their right mind would want to work for a team where he wasn't allowed to make any decisions. In each of those three years, almost nobody emerged as a candidate because nobody wanted to be a part of it. Even the QB coach at USC turned down the opportunity to interview to be an NFL head coach.

Kiffin had the game right. Last year, he committed to developing their own players, allowing players to gel (rather than overhauling the roster every 2 years), and you saw huge improvements. What happened this offseason makes it evident that Kiffin is no longer in control, and that's a shame, quite frankly. Because I'm afraid your team may be turning away a coach with enormous NFL potential.

#35

Posted by Mike, May 31, 2008 10:36 AM

Jon I agree that Lane has potential to be a great coach and I hope things work out with him and Al. Remember the defense of line lost its best players for most of the season. If Rob Ryan should be judged for poor play so should Kiffin based on the poor passing attack. Did Ryan call for Kiffin release because of poor stats. Input on the coaching staff should develop over time based on head coaching experience and is earned. Coaching in the NFL is much different than college. Tom Cable certainly deserves hugh credit for the line play. Young coaches need development and mentoring not hugh egos and a full wallet. Kiffin can improve his team decision power by getting results for the offense as other raider coaches have accomplished in the past. I hope he is not another Bobby Petrino or Nick Saban. I disagree about Chucky building a playoff contender. He has little success developing a young QB. Monte Kiffin deserves more credit because he keeps the defense solid. As far as coaches are concerned the media blows it way out of portion.

#36

Posted by In J-Russ We Trust, May 31, 2008 11:20 AM

guys please stop responding to the haters comments. thats how they get their rocks off. like little mikey, someone who is here often that just comments on stories that are rumors. he's probably mad because dateline has that show on "how to catch a predator" and now can't do what he really wants to do, which is to prey on little boys and girls. he's the type of guy who says things behind the safety of his computor screen in his mothers basement/room. and probably has no life outside of that. if you approach a guy like this you will probably see he doesn't make eye contact with people. even puuting your hand out for a handshake is a challenge for him as he will give you a weak pittiful excuse of a handshake that even my grandmother can do better. so lets get back to football talk and sorry for the interuption.

#37

Posted by Mike49er, May 31, 2008 11:34 AM

(copy and paste someone's name and comment here)

mike49er: blah blah blah (totally missing the point of the article) blah blah i'm a loser blah blah lol blah blah (insert smiley face here)lol

(name and comment)

mike49er: blah blah (put my own spin on the article or say something thats are ready been stated here months ago and try to take credit to make myself look smarter)blah blah blah yakkity yak blah blah i need a job, a girlfriend basically a life) lmao (smiley face)lol

mike49er: blah blah blah blah (misunderstand a comment and twist it into joke) blah blah blah (smiley face) lol

#38

Posted by Mike49er, May 31, 2008 1:03 PM

Haha RaiderMike is back again! He doesn�t even comment on the Niner articles, yet he has a long history here.

Mike49er: "Long history here"?? I think I've been here about a month or so. Maybe you just feel overwhelmed, and it seems longer. Either way, interesting that you noted, yet I believe this is your first reply. It's ok, you're not the first.

#39

Posted by Twocents, May 31, 2008 1:25 PM

Here is a preview of the 2009 Raider coaching staff.

Head Coach: James Lofton

Offensive Co-ordinator: Kieth Rowen

Defensive Co-ordinator: Al Davis (lackey to be named later.)

Enjoy 2008, because it's all we're going to get.

#40

Posted by Mike49er, May 31, 2008 1:28 PM

Rob Calonge says:

May 30th, 2008 at 7:20 pm

Hello MikeR8R! Before I start, let me inform you that I�m trying to be gentle. I don�t want you to get your feelings hurt like you did a week ago. Is that alright?

Mike49er: I'm sorry, Bobbo...but what of do you speak? A week ago?? lol...Link??? You know, just for ONCE accept a challenge..show me a link where you feel you "hurt my widdle feelings", lol...didn't happen, Eggo..only in your dreams.

Again..Link???? Can someone help him with this?

I was going to address ALL of the items that you took two posts to make, but then I thought better of it.

Mike49er: LMAO..Uh..Bobbo?? "thought better of it"??

In other words, you wisely declined.

I think I pretty much predicted that, didn't I?

(psst...Rob?? Feel free to pm me prior to making these posts if you aren't sure on some areas. I don't mind helping ya out. Really..I don't. A beer every now and again will suffice.)

Your commenting on my story! I�ve already done the work. I�ve read, re-read, and then checked it again. I�m quite satisfied with it.

Mike49er: Ahhh..so you ask the questions, but you're saying they were just rhetorical? You didn't want a reply? In fact, you refuse to listen to anything but your OWN take?

Kind of meek..but definitely the safe way of posting.

See NO MAS above, Eggo..lol..yep..you are of the Eggo variety, that is for sure.

======================================

You see Mike, nobody expects to change your opinion. You are a hater. It literally makes you feel good to make others upset, but you fail here. I�m not upset and I doubt anyone else is either, but maybe that�s what keeps bringing you back.

Mike49er: No one said to change anyone's mind. The CHALLENGES TO YOU WERE to back up YOUR words regarding Gruden.

You just schooled, and you have nothing?

Same as with Callahan...with Norv..with Shell.

See, it's not OPINION..I stated your comments were incorrect. I followed with facts. Now??

You run the "can't change your mind" bit? lol...Geez Bobbo..all i asked is can YOU back up YOUR words?

Obviously you can't. If you could refute what I said, YOU WOULD HAVE..instead you run the "You're a hater, and we can't change your mind'??

Facts are facts. You don't have them. I just informed you of them. I suspect you checked, and found out I was right...:) So..what could you say, exactly?

Either "You're right" or "I respectfully decline to comment in the event I look foolish"

Hey..like I said..just post..POST AWAY...right or wrong, just go for it buddy, lol...

=====================================

I want to thank you for coming by to chat, but I�ve got another story to do. I would�ve loved to have ripped your posts apart piece by piece but there is only so much time in the day.

Mike49er: LMAO..yeah..right Bobbo..you would have just "loved to rip it apart, piece by piece" SO INSTEAD you just pretend you could have..but won't?

It's ok, Eggo, :) We both understand, don't we?

BTW, before I congratulate someone for having my back, I�ve usually already addressed you myself. I think all of us here know that I can handle my business�even with you Mike.

Mike49er: And yet, you don't. How can you say you handle your business..when I just shot your complete take to pieces, WITH FACTS, and you didn't correct even one??

Did anyone?? Seriously...DID A SINGLE POSTER CORRECT ANY OF MY COMMENTS REGARDING AL DAVIS and the way he's handled all of the above?

What does that tell ya, Bobbo? :)

Tells you maybe you missed the mark..just a bit.

Again, it's ok..you have me to help you along.

By the time the season starts, I'll bet you'll be right on top of your game, buddy.

---

Oh yeah, make sure to come back tomorrow too, the story will have real quotes, and TFDS will be your actual source for them!

Mike49er: Must have missed them...uh..where might those be?

---

Thanks for stopping by Mike. Great posts!

Mike49er: I Please to Aim, Bobbo :) The voice of reality, while not always popular, is enlightening.

Such is my lot if life.

Donations accepted via PayPal.

#41

Posted by Mike49er, May 31, 2008 1:32 PM

Patrick Patterson says:

May 30th, 2008 at 9:41 pm

Something must have struck a nerve with Mikey, he sure got worked up into a real froth.

======================================

Don't confuse laughing with frothing, Patrick.

So, I'm curious..was a single thing I stated wrong?

Lol..didn't think so.

#42

Posted by Logan, May 31, 2008 2:18 PM

Haha, exactly what I expected, not one shred of proof, a giant paragraph of talk. All talk, no proof means Mike gets to be a loud troll under the bridge.

You're pathetic, Mike. All that talk, yet, if you could prove any of it, you would have just dropped a few links in your post and shut every one up. You didn't, so obviously you can't. I asked you to prove your claims, which were basically your version of what everyone speculates that Al Davis does. You can't do it, so of course, I'm going to say this. You're full of shit. I can see why the other boards got tired of you. Look at your posts and provide one time when you've provided a fact that you can prove with a link. Then post the link.

Saying what you said in ALL CAPS isn't proving your point. It's just shouting the same thing over and over again. Back up your claims...or find another board to troll that might listen to you lie and speculate without proof.

Hmm...and your talk for a quick search...it seems like if you were able to prove any of your claims, a quick google search would give you a link to post and it would get the rest of us off your back. Yet you couldn't do that, so haha a troll you remain. Have fun being absolutely pathetic. I expect an essay in ALL CAPS soon.

ALL CAPS!

#43

Posted by Twocents, May 31, 2008 5:26 PM

I have been trying to find a good analogy for Al Davis and it finally struck me.

Al Davis is the Fidel Castro of the NFL.

Fidel was victorious in his prime. He parlayed his good fortune into absolute control over the tiny island nation of Cuba. Ultimately, he failed to bring lasting prosperity to his nation but remained in power due to the support of Mother Russia.

Al Davis is likewise supported by the revenue sharing policy of the NFL.

Like Castro, Al will live to be 90 and continue to drag his nation into despair.

Raider Nation, follow the example of the brave souls who risked their lives to be free. Man the boats and flee the tyrant that is Al Davis!

#44

Posted by Tim, May 31, 2008 6:26 PM

Every time I see Al Davis, I see a mob boss in drag.

#45

Posted by Mike49er, May 31, 2008 7:01 PM

LMAO..yeah..sure..I'll school you...AGAIN.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/115047/will_mike_martz_be_a_nfl_head_coach.html?cat=14

Quote: "The 54-year-old Martz was cleared by specialists treating his heart condition to return to work on Jan. 1. He recently interviewed for the Oakland Raiders head coach vacancy, but then withdrew his name from consideration over the weekend. Martz and the Rams have reached a settlement on the one-year, $3.25 million remaining on his contract."

There were only 13 THOUSAND entries, dumbass. Amazing you don't follow SQUAT about the Raiders.

Let's rub it in your face a little more, dumbass.

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20060129&slug=nfl29

Quote: ST. LOUIS � Just two days after interviewing in Oakland for the Raiders' head-coaching job, Mike Martz on Saturday pulled his name out of consideration.

In a telephone interview with the St. Louis Post-Dispatch Saturday night, Martz said he enjoyed his interview session with Raiders owner Al Davis and said working for Davis would have been a blast. But he said the overall situation in Oakland just didn't feel right, so he no longer is a candidate.

"It was fun visiting with Al Davis," Martz said. "But the situation's probably not for me right now."

Martz declined to elaborate.

=====================================

http://profootballexperts.scout.com/2/604707.html

Quote: 3) Bobby Petrino/Head Coach/University of Louisville - He turned down the Oakland Raiders last year more than once to be their head coach. Petrino was the offensive coordinator for one year with the Jacksonville Jaguars so he has experience at the NFL level. It's not a secret that Petrino was the first choice of Raider senior personnel executive Mike Lomarbi to be their head coach, not Art Shell.Petrino has done a great.

Yeah, MORON..I back up my words. Figured EVERYONE who actually FOLLOWS THE TEAM knows exactly what I'm talking about. Those little fools, like you, who know squat about the Raiders insist on setting themselves up to get slapped around.

Yeah, laughing my ass off at you, moron.

BTW..here's another little tidbit from that article:

QUOTE: "Oakland Raiders - While head coach Art Shell replaced Tom Walsh as offensive coordinator, the offensive line has been a disaster this season and there have not been any signs of real improvement. You have to wonder who would be crazy enough to take this job if Shell gets canned. At least they have a decent defense"

Gee..I wonder who could have already said that? lol...

Thanks for the setup, dumbass.

Want to see more laughs at your expense??

FROM THIS BOARD, moron, few MONTHS AGO.

http://mvn.com/nfl-raiders/2008/03/30/thoughts-from-the-dark-side-celebrates-its-3rd-anniversary/

Quote by Patty: It seems that Ken Whisenhunt is the one that Al is coveting. This would be a very good choice, in my opinion. There seems to be this general fear that somehow the media reports or the long standing rivalry between the Raiders and the Steelers would somehow prevent Whisenhunt from taking the job. This seems to be a panic bordering on extreme paranoia. The story is that Sean Payton turned down the Raider job two years ago, but he was never in fact even offered the job. Mike Martz removed himself from consideration the other day citing that the situation did not feel right to him. I am guessing that the situation didn�t feel right because he knew that Al had someone else in mind.

#46

Posted by Jon, May 31, 2008 9:14 PM

Mike (and not 49er Mike). It is not an abuse of power for a head coach to want his own kinds of coaches. It's ridiculous for an owner/GM to force a coach to run a system he is uncomfortable with. Can you imagine if the Pats forced Bellichick to run a cover 2 4-3 defense? I can't either.

If Kiffin feels strongly that Ryan doesn't run his kind of defense, that should largely be his call. To answer your question about the pass offense, it takes more than a year to get that going, especially when you change QBs in midseason. I don't think you could possibly blame Kiffin for any struggles in that department.

But again, the reason your team saw signs of life last year was b/c Kiffin had the patience to let them grow. While Davis would probably throw Gallery and Fargas to the curb, Kiffin was patient enough to find a way to make them work.

What I saw last year was nothing revolutionary. I just saw a team that was for the first time in 5 years given the time to gel together. Teams don't gel when you're constantly tearing them apart every year. Guarantee that next season, the Raiders spend about 4 or 5 games finding themselves. And then, by the time the team finds themselves and gels, the season will be over, and Davis will tear the team apart and add a few new faces again.

It's an endless cycle. Rebuilds typically take about 2-3 years (see Tampa/Tennessee).Davis gave it one year. He should've let Kiffin have at least some control, but like he's been known to do, Davis can't accept more than 1 year of waiting.

#47

Posted by Craig, May 31, 2008 9:37 PM

Think what you wish (I still am a raider fan after some 30 years) Al Davis has been a character in so many ways and has been part of the reason for the growth of the AFC into the NFL and an owner who has won more SuperBowls than most all owners.

#48

Posted by Joe Donkey, May 31, 2008 10:56 PM

Dear Rob, I happened upon this blog during an unrelated search and took a second to read...

What's sad, is that you are disturbingly invested in Al Davis/The Raiders... Instead of investing that time writing about something for which you have no real connection (unless you know someone on the team), you should invest that time with your kids... oh, you don't have kids... maybe spend that time with your wife... oh you don't have a wife... well then how about spending that time trying to get a life? And that also goes for all the folks that left comments... sad

#49

Posted by In J-Russ We Trust, May 31, 2008 11:18 PM

joe donkey, ha, what a dumbass. he just said it was sad for all of us that made comments,but he read it and then made a comment. if thats not the kettle calling the pot black. i guess he's got a life .

#50

Posted by goeff knoss, June 1, 2008 12:38 AM

SCREW AL DAVIS

#51

Posted by Patrick Patterson, June 1, 2008 2:59 AM

Mikey,

I am flattered that you took the time to sift through the archives to bring up my old story, but I would like to clarify a couple of things about it, since it was posted here out of context.

1) Whilst the story that you linked to was posted on 30 March 2008, the quote you took was quoted from story that was originally posted in January of 2006.

2) From the quote you posted, "Mike Martz removed himself from consideration the other day citing that the situation did not feel right to him. I am guessing that the situation didn�t feel right because he knew that Al had someone else in mind." Notice the bold part, Mikey.... Does that back up your thesis?

#52

Posted by Logan, June 1, 2008 4:37 AM

Hmmm...Mike, the only source that isn't blogs or forums has Mike Martz saying that it would have been fun to work for Davis, which flies right in the face of your claims.

Haha, leave it to Mike to find the blog posts and forums posting that are also speculation instead of direct quotes (which multiple people are asking for btw) that prove that Davis is a meddling owner. All you've got are your words and the assorted words of the internet. In other words, you've got nothing....well outside Mike Martz saying it would have been fun to coach the Silver and Black.

So I suppose me actually dismissing speculation when it's speculation makes me dumber than the average. It would seem that I like to deal in facts. Let's look at them.

The single largest reason why the Raiders have failed in the last 5-7 years or so falls directly to two key problems. Since you know so much about the Raiders (and nothing about your stated team...funny) you should already know that losing Gannon is the first piece of the problem. He was a strong leader and productive at the quarterback position. This gave the team direction on offense.

Second comes from Gruden wanting out of Oakland, not due to Al Davis pushing him out, but look at the team at that point. We had aging veterans and were on the verge of a rebuild and the quarterback had just gone down. If the stress were not enough, he also had interest from Tampa but a contract with the Raiders. If Davis were such a hardass, he would have fired the coach outright for even being curious about Tampa. That's not what happened though, instead we got value for him. A savvy move.

Now, since then, the Raiders coaches have either quit on the team (Callahan, who proved after the Raiders with Wisconsin that he wasn't HC material anyway), Turner, who had an out of gas Kerry Collins as QB (which wasn't going to work in the first place), and Shell (who waited until way too late to ditch what got him fired in the first place...I'll wait...yes, Tom Walsh and his awful offense). The leadership at the top (meaning Head Coach, not owner) has been inept.

Since Gannon, we've had Kerry Collins, Aaron Brooks, Andrew Walter, Josh McCown, and Dante Culpepper play behind center. With the exception of McCown and Culpepper, they were either ineffective, or past their prime. Walter gets a bad rap for playing behind Walsh's offense, but those are the breaks.

Where can Al Davis be blamed for any of this? (in case you forgot, that's what I was asking you to prove, the coaches were a secondary issue, which you only made yourself look worse on by citing blogs and other people like yourself aka fans) Where was all the meddling and overruling that you (and people like you) claim? Surely if Davis has such little patience, he would have been yanking guys left and right, and firing OCs and DCs like breathing, right?

And if players are so quick to badmouth the organization, surely coaches would say something on the record about the team too? Maybe even a throwaway comment? Not one coach did, maybe Whisenhunt, but your quote looks more like a compliment for his current situation rather than an insult to the Raiders.

Overall, Mike, you did exactly what I expected you to do. Post one good link and a bunch of shit ones and expect your word to be good as gospel. Also, it shows your arrogance when you claim that only Raider fans that echo your thoughts know what they're talking about, and especially when it's outright wrong. Speculation by Raider fans is still speculation, it's guessing when they do it and it's guessing when you do it.

Funny, your Petrino stuff was pretty weakly defended too (remember that Petrino is the same guy who bailed on Lousiville, then bailed again on Atlanta...looks like he pulled out before Al could see through him anyway, then blamed it on his family not being ready for a move..classy guy). *from http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2324836

All in all, you claim its the ownership that makes coaches turn down the job...all without taking in the whole picture of the Raiders at the time which was: Aging on both sides of the ball, no real talent at the skill positions, unproven on the line, at the linebackers, and the secondary was decent at absolute best, the offense had no quarterback, no receivers, and unproven running backs (goodbye Whisenhunt and Martz), and overall the roster was a wasteland.

There are more things to consider than the ownership, especially when the rumors about the owner are hardly ever showing up as truth from any source. The roster is highly important to a coach, because they have to have PLAYERS (ALL CAPS haha) to fit the scheme.

Your allegations are baseless at worst, and at best, they're one-sided.

Please, keep trying though, it's funny for me.

Oh, and let's look at your "sources"

BLOGS

http://raiders.pressdemocrat.com/default.asp?item=508359

http://flashwarner.com/nfl/oakland_raiders/

http://mvn.com/nfl-raiders/2008/03/30/thoughts-from-the-dark-side-celebrates-its-3rd-anniversary/

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/115047/will_mike_martz_be_a_nfl_head_coach.html?cat=14

NEWSPAPERS (2 of them, one unrelated other than a mention of Whisenhunt being up for the Cardinals job, and the other as I mentioned before, DIDN'T AGREE WITH YOUR OWN ASSERTION, Mike...haha that caps thing is fun)

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/steelers/s_486334.html

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20060129&slug=nfl29

FORUMS (just as much of an opinion as blogs, which means no facts...once again)

http://www.raiderfans.net/forum/969976-post81.html

Hmm....that's all your links, and of them only one kind of made a point, and that was Whisenhunt turning down an offer to coach a team that was weak where he has a strength...rocket science it isn't. Wow, I never expected you to use Google to make a fool of yourself, Mike. Next time, figure out the difference between fact and opinion, and find some quotes from coaches, or maybe players, or a front office staffer. It's clear that you not only don't know football, but don't know the Raiders either. Otherwise you would have known that the roster from Gannon's injury on couldn't have drawn any coaches even if Al Davis were Jerry West and Red Auerbach rolled into one.

#53

Posted by Rob Calonge, June 1, 2008 7:32 AM

Joe Donkey - Rather than searching aimlessly on the web for stories I never find, I take that time to write them for guys like you. Thanks for stopping by and please do mistakenly happen across our pages anytime.

BTW - My family (wife, kids, parents, friends) is fine and wholeheartedly supports what I do. Does your family know that you're surfing the web aimlessly?

#54

Posted by Mike49er, June 1, 2008 11:55 AM

# Patrick Patterson says:

June 1st, 2008 at 2:59 am

Mikey,

I am flattered that you took the time to sift through the archives to bring up my old story, but I would like to clarify a couple of things about it, since it was posted here out of context.

Mike49er: "took the time to look through the archives"??? lol...Uh...NO, Patrick.

Try this.

In Google bar type in "Martz turns down Raiders head coaching job"

Yep, 5 seconds.

Try it.

See?? isn't it neat?

#55

Posted by Jason McCord, June 1, 2008 1:07 PM

Great article. I keep logging on to read what you guys have to say. As a long time Raider Fan I will support my team in every way that I can. I think we all know that we've had our ups and downs with Al. Think how different things might have looked if Rich Gannon had been able to continue. We like to put it all on Al because he puts himself in that position. Just 'cause he's made some bad choices dosen't mean he's lost his touch. I for one do hope that he will give Kif enough control to make a difference. I think it's his youth that combined with Al's experiance that will give us a future.

#56

Posted by vancouver raider, June 1, 2008 2:41 PM

Yes Al can be controlling, undermining the coach's authority.

I think people judge the Art Shell decision too harshly. At the time, Raiders needed a strong authority figure as a coach. Unfortunately Art doesn't have all the knowledge and skills needed, especially for designing and running a modern NFL offense. So Al should have known this flaw in Art, and made sure that Art got the best coordinator to compensate for Art's weaknesses.

Unfortunately I think Art's loyalty got the best of him, he apparently got to select his own OC, and it was a very unwise choice.

#57

Posted by jeremy, June 2, 2008 1:09 PM

mike, carry on your rhettoric across the bay and leave the details of the raiders to us.

#58

Posted by how many times did the chargers beat the raiders, June 2, 2008 1:55 PM

[...] been better off keeping Chucky. Since the Buccaneers beat the raiders in the Super Bowl, ...http://mvn.com/nfl-raiders/2008/05/30/al-davis-has-the-game-past-him-by/Crunch Time Duerrisms for May 10th KHQA QuincyBy Chris Duerr Posted: Sunday, May 11, 2008 at 12:20 [...]

#59

Posted by Christian, June 8, 2008 12:37 AM

Mr. Davis is a legend and a member of the hall of fame. Take the time to look up what Jerry Jones said after his first superbowl win, to paraphrase, all credit goes to Davis, who counseled and walked him through his first few disasterous years.

Patrick makes a compelling and argument nullifying point, no ownerin the nfl, or in any sport for that matter, has Mr. Davis' knowledge and experience.

Football intelligence does get passd by regardless of any changes in the nature of the game.

We'll make it back to glory.

#60

Posted by Christian, June 8, 2008 12:38 AM

I meant to say football intelligence does not get passed by...

#61

Posted by Christian, June 8, 2008 12:39 AM

Meant to say that football intelligence does not get passed by...